Curse

Masseur · May 15, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

And about the rebirth rez, it's only good use is for pulling dead players away from a mob if you can't get in close enough to do a real rez. In the middle of battle it's a suicide type of rez and shouldn't be used.
Rez Chant, a factions skill rezs players with up to YOUR health and a certain % of energy, like 11% in my case.

Also, don't point out the fact that you're dead to the Monks, they know and will rez if it's necessary or possible while still keeping the group alive. If I don't need to rez you for us to finish off the mob, then I'm not going to rez you until we're done or it's safe to do so. And to the only monk on a team rezzing during a battle, shame on you, let someone else do it so you're not letting everyone else die to rez one person, lol.....

ump · May 15, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Well, there are different ways to handle a 2 monk situation. First, you can have a protection monk and a healing monk. The protection monk is proactive and trying to prevent damage. Usually you do this by looking at the battlefield, but if you're looking at health bars, when they are about 1/4 health down. An example of this is Guardian and Aegis and prevent damage from landing. The healing monk is reactive and negating damage that has already been done. If you are into looking at skill bars, wait until they are 1/3 to 1/2 health down.

The other way you can do this is have the first monk work top down and have the second monk work bottom up. Obviously, do not be strict on splitting the healing in half as one particular character might need more attention or one monk might have to do more work than another but it helps early on to prevent overhealing or healing the same character when two characters need attention.

Also, don't be strict on monks having to self-heal because healing monks are much better/efficient at healing others than they are at healing self.

Red · May 15, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan Chrae

I normally play protection monk. 90% of all monks play healer. (Why? When protection is so much more fun and valuable)

I used to be in PvE an Healer all-in-wonder; that is, a healer with Condition removal and Prot Spirit, etc. I didn't really touch Protection Prayers, as they were scary and seemingly stupid. WTF is up with "shielding hands provides -2 damage" when you can spam Word of Healing for 1,301?

And then I was forced into it, as our guild's partner guild likes to Fissure a lot, but they don't have very many experienced monks. So, while the n00bs played healer, I was forced to go Prot (and learn the hard way that Mark of Protection is a double-edged sword... this was back when the book trick worked, but Mark of Protection still disabled all Prot spells for 10 full seconds).

I have come to the conclusion:
Healer is the W/Mo of monking.

It doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to click a health bar and hit Orison. It takes only slightly more brainpower to wait for a bar to fall below 50% and then hit Word. Bars fall, you heal, it's that simple.

Prot, however... you have to predict who's going to take damage, what type of damage, and how it's going to be taken. Will it be a single huge fire magic hit, or a group of melee? Different situations require different Protection prayers, to say nothing of the fact that condition removal is the realm of Protection Prayers. Prot is to Heal what Mesmer/Necro is to Whammo. -_-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Splitting teams is for losers. If you have two healers, then either there's a reason for it and overlapping won't be an issue due to high damage.... or, more likely, you're doing something wrong.

Be a (wo)man. If you find that you have two healers, switch to Prot. ><

..... or SMITE FTW!!!!

kaya · May 15, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

RE: Monks healing themselves...

WoH, Heal Other, RC, Infuse, Mend Condition - Target Other Ally spells.

TBH its not the monk's choice to get hit, also since you need good spammable condition removers.

Its just cheaper and easier for the monks to to heal the other monk. The reason being, if the monk gets hit. The monk should be kiting the enemy away. Therefore its just more efficient for the other monk to heal.

Very good point. And a good reminder... Sometimes a monk best defence is to run from and warrior or what not when he's being attacked. The second monk should be there to heal him, and visa versa.
/props

Master Kimchee · May 15, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

A boon prot/healing monk team is 10 times better than 2 heal monks... so there should never be any reason to split the healing in the first place...

Crazyvietguy · May 15, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Personally I enjoy Protting more than Healing, however if my team requests i go healing i have no trouble doing so. As someone said earlier Prot takes more brainpower to do. Sure when i heal i can use WoH, Heal Other, Orison and they are at full health again. But On the same token i can go Guardian, SoD and they evade all physical damage. Theres different Prot Combos and what not, and im still learning how to be a good prot, but for the meantime im having fun experiementing.

kaya · May 15, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

depends on the mission. there are some missions where yes, you do need two monks.

felinette · May 16, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ump

Also, don't be strict on monks having to self-heal because healing monks are much better/efficient at healing others than they are at healing self.

Yeah, the best healing spells are usually Target Other Ally, meaning the monk can't use it on him/herself. As well, monks will stay away from the mob. If they're being hit, they'll kite, and they can't cast while doing that, but the other monk can heal them. The only time I get annoyed about having to heal the other monk is if they're tanking, or just standing there while being pounded on.

I switched my Canthan monk over to a protection build tonight and henched for a couple of hours. It really works well--the party, overall, took less damage than when she was a healer. So I think I'll stick with prot for a while. Seems to work well with the healer henchie.

Vermilion · May 16, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyvietguy

Personally I enjoy Protting more than Healing, however if my team requests i go healing i have no trouble doing so. As someone said earlier Prot takes more brainpower to do. Sure when i heal i can use WoH, Heal Other, Orison and they are at full health again. But On the same token i can go Guardian, SoD and they evade all physical damage. Theres different Prot Combos and what not, and im still learning how to be a good prot, but for the meantime im having fun experiementing.

I've got my PvE monk who can do a little of everything, a PvP HA Smiter, (typically a healer) and my dedicated BoonProtmonk. Covers all bases.

It honestly never occurred to me to split healing (I'm counting Protting in this, and thats what I do mostly) between monks..and no guildies ever brought it up. Of course we already have splits in mind before a Gvg anyway, so I know who I am responsible for. Two monks = pwn though. If one gets backfire/shame/etc, the other can just remove it, and help them kite with a well-placed RoF.

And honestly, I've come to think that Healing really only has a place in PvE and HA. I've never seen a good team run a healer in regular Gvg, and I was never told to bring healing or see another healer on the roster. I prefer Boonprot though, if only because the 2 1-second cast spells I have>Any Healing spells which are always 1 or 3/4. (WoH)

And one more thing, is that 1 bad monk out of 2 really can hurt a team. I was grouped with a monk who didn't know how to kite (new to Gvg) earlier, and its a pain..they easily required most of my healing, (prot I mean) and under pressure would often break.

Kha · May 16, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

My monk is usually healer 99% of the time. Easier to find groups and to me it's more fun. I feel like I'm in control that way. I'll be the pro monk when needed, and it's fun and all, but it's more laid back and IMHO easier to pull off. I prefer the challenge of being a healer.

I find that the biggest problem with healers is that they can't manage their energy. Halfway through they are like "My energy is 2 of 44." It's all about knowing what skills to bring AND when to use them. A healingmonk will just throw an Orison (a waste of a spot though) or WoH here and there and be like "Done, now let me recharge cause I used all my energy for one simple battle." A wise healing monk will know when to use what skill and when not to use it. They don't use just direct heals, but also healing overtime. They're not just spamming every skill that they can. This means less downtime between battles, a quicker mission completion, and a happier group.

I use 3 direct healing skills and 3 overtime healing skills. They compliment eachother well. Before I would throw in Aegis too back with Prophecies, but since Factions I am pure Healing/Divine Favor (plus Rebirth). I might be pressing more skills than someone who has a few protection spells at times, but that's not the point here. My energy management is much better than when I was using protection spells. And the extra points in Divine Favor DO add up for healing. If I have a good group, I won't go under 30 energy even when I'm the only monk.

I don't think monks should bring a self heal for PvE. Especially if there's a second monk, because then it's pointless. It's a waste of a spot. If I do need to heal myself, I have Ethereal Light and Healing Breeze, but I'm not going to waste a slot with Healing Touch or something like that. My build is 6 healing skills (3 of which can only be used on other allies), a sig of capture (unless I know that zone/mission won't have something I need) and a res.

Splitting the healing up in a team is pointless. I've never had a problem with a fellow monk overlapping heals with me. Knowing what skills the other monk uses and paying attention to what kind of situations they cast them is more valuable than saying "I'll heal A, B, and C, and you get D, E, and F." I have a much bigger problem with NPC monks like Mhenlo and Danika in certain missions/quests healing allies that I was going to heal, and then I end up wasting energy healing them too.

Protection monks are powerful and wonderful to have in groups, but for PvE they are not necessary. One skilled healing monk and a patient, experienced team will be just as good as a team with a healing monk AND a protection monk. Even two healing monks isn't as bad as some people think. It's just about knowing when to use what skills and how to manage your energy. With factions, I actually find I rather have a ritualist in the team than a protection monk. Protection monk feels like a wasted spot 90% of the time now.

As someone pointed out, a good monk won't just watch life. They also have to watch the radar and the screen. If you're just watching the group's life then you won't really know what is going on in the battle. You won't know which way to run safely if something does go after you, you won't know when patrols are coming close, and you won't know how far people are from you so you can anticipate if you'll have to move to get close enough to actually heal them or if you can stand safely in one spot.

Just my views on playing a monk for almost a year now in PvE... though maybe I just like to hear myself talk and don't know what I'm talking about :P

Sekkira · May 16, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

I agree with everything here, except with the hate against people that draw in more aggro after the battle is over. IMO, that warrior has a full bar of adrenaline, I'll let him unleash it immediately. Going from battle to battle is not a chore, it's not hard... Well okay it is, it's a challange. It makes playing a monk fun. This is why I enjoy Vizunah square and most of Factions.

Battles that last for a long time with enemies pouring in from all sides, it's an effort on the whole team to kite away from damage, deal it and keep each other alive. Prophecies was just a tank aggro group, tank takes damage, monk heals tank if gets too low, wait till the rest of the party have killed off the mob, wait for regen, rinse repeat. I fall asleep with that. I know others that do that effectively while asleep, literally.

Tanks are useless nowdays, prot + heal > heal x 2. Anyone who thinks a protection monk is useless in Factions either has never played one well, has never teamed with someone that played one well, is just an idiot, or a combination of those three.

Anraeth · May 16, 2006, 04:59 AM // 04:59

This regards to pvp healing

Eventually, someone will need more healing than one person can give them, and what if all 3 people one monk is covering are attacked? Thats why everyone i heal with has always found this method silly. In difficult situations, just call who you are giving enchants to over vent/ts.

And regarding monks healing themselves. With 60 AL, and the already limited self heals you are likely to have, this just isnt going to happen.

Carth` · May 16, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

This post about PvE

I have played a healer, a prot, a bonder, a heal/prot mix, and I love playing them all. But I find the healer is the only person people thank in a PUG. It doesn't matter that the bonder is reducing your damage by half or more. It doesn't matter that the prot is stopping you from taking spike damage, stopping you from getting hit or further reducing the damage to you. The wammo will see that his health went up with a "+190 +64" or whatever, and say "wow, great job healer".

This really annoyed me how underappreciated the prot or bonder is in one game. Because there was a lot of conditions being put on my team, I was using mend condition as a heal (and naturally this was also helpful in that a condition was removed), but of course people only saw the blue +number on them, and presumed it was the heal monk doing everything. In truth the heal monk did very little, and it was me keeping everyone, including him, alive.

That's why I recently went back to healer. As a bonder or a protection monk you can be keeping the whole team alive, but they don't care. In fact the noobs tell you to be a healer. There were 2 heal monks in a team that I joined yesterday, so I said I would go prot, and the leader told me "no, go heal. we need lots of heals". Well have it your way

Btw, it's not always true. Sometimes you get in a well balanced team that won't leave without a bonder or a boon prot, and they do appreciate you. They tell everyone to wait for bonds and thank you for them. I generally think these people are the ones who have played monks (other than heal) themselves.

Kha · May 16, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

This post about PvE

I have played a healer, a prot, a bonder, a heal/prot mix, and I love playing them all. But I find the healer is the only person people thank in a PUG. It doesn't matter that the bonder is reducing your damage by half or more. It doesn't matter that the prot is stopping you from taking spike damage, stopping you from getting hit or further reducing the damage to you. The wammo will see that his health went up with a "+190 +64" or whatever, and say "wow, great job healer".

This really annoyed me how underappreciated the prot or bonder is in one game. Because there was a lot of conditions being put on my team, I was using mend condition as a heal (and naturally this was also helpful in that a condition was removed), but of course people only saw the blue +number on them, and presumed it was the heal monk doing everything. In truth the heal monk did very little, and it was me keeping everyone, including him, alive.

That's why I recently went back to healer. As a bonder or a protection monk you can be keeping the whole team alive, but they don't care. In fact the noobs tell you to be a healer. There were 2 heal monks in a team that I joined yesterday, so I said I would go prot, and the leader told me "no, go heal. we need lots of heals". Well have it your way

Btw, it's not always true. Sometimes you get in a well balanced team that won't leave without a bonder or a boon prot, and they do appreciate you. They tell everyone to wait for bonds and thank you for them. I generally think these people are the ones who have played monks (other than heal) themselves.

I found this funny in the fact that I've had the complete opposite experience. I'm pretty sure I've never been complimented for being a good healing monk, even when I was the only monk in missions like Nahpui Quarter or Raisu Palace, but everytime I bring the right bonds or good protection skills when I go pro monk, the team is quick to say that I know what I'm doing and they are thankful I am there to reduce damage, or something like that. And I don't think I'm the greatest of a protection monk because I find it boring most of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Tanks are useless nowdays, prot + heal > heal x 2. Anyone who thinks a protection monk is useless in Factions either has never played one well, has never teamed with someone that played one well, is just an idiot, or a combination of those three.

I don't think people are idiots because they don't agree how important/helpful protection monks can be (they're not useless, but that second monk whether healing or protection is not a necessity), but I agree it's probably because most haven't grouped with well-played ones. Most people put too much focus on that it's the monk's job to keep everyone alive. That's why many think you need two monks or even three. But it's really a group effort. Sure it's the monk healing (most of the time) and doing the obvious work of keeping everyone alive, but working together successfully, avoiding aggro when needed, knowing what mobs to bring down first, how to kite, what skills to use when in certain situations-- all these things add up.

I wouldn't say tanks are useless though. You can't rely on a protection monk to do everything for a group. Mobs interrupt, disenchant, cause problems, energy can run out, etc. A protection monk is only as good as the situation they are in. Sure they can make that ele or mesmer that is getting pounded as strong, if not stronger, than a regular warrior, but the minute something goes wrong whether by human stupidity or game error, all hell can break lose and the party could be wiped. There may be plenty of situations when a tank won't be needed, but it can be quite a risk if you're relying too much on spells and enchantments to keep the damage from serious danger levels. Having something to fall back on is what makes tanks valuable.

Personally, I'd love to try everything as just the sole monk in the group. I'm up for the challenge, but there are others than just me in the group. So I have to consider them. If they really want that second healer or a protector, then I'm not going to protest. But if they think they are always necessary, or that even a third monk should be added, then I'm going to set them straight. There's a difference between a successful group requirement and a standard group requirement. Most people want the standard group.

Mandy Memory · May 16, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Whenever I am healing for a party with more monks besides me, I always end up healing the whole party...and the other monk(s). Whats with people not knowing how to heal others...let alone themselves, these days? (Maybe massive surge of 55's turned pve?)

Edit: Caught myself. It could be those with a pvp background have faster reaction times or better builds (Energy manage much?) thus the other monks are wasting their energy and end up with none...thus needing help healing themselves and making the healing of others pointless. Just an alternate explination....although I think the guy spamming heal area and trying to run up to people isnt a very good monk...

Warskull · May 16, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Whenever I am healing for a party with more monks besides me, I always end up healing the whole party...and the other monk(s). Whats with people not knowing how to heal others...let alone themselves, these days? (Maybe massive surge of 55's turned pve?)

Edit: Caught myself. It could be those with a pvp background have faster reaction times or better builds (Energy manage much?) thus the other monks are wasting their energy and end up with none...thus needing help healing themselves and making the healing of others pointless. Just an alternate explination....although I think the guy spamming heal area and trying to run up to people isnt a very good monk...

Actually, that is exactly it. PvP monks are forged in a different environment than PvE monks and as a result are much stronger. In PvP you have no rest periods, there is no controlling agro, and there is no 'book trick' to abuse. The enemy will pressure you constantly and do everything they can to break your monks. The difference between a PvP monks and a PvE monk is that after a battle the PvE monk is screaming he is at 3/40 energy while the PvP monk is still at 35/40.

The 55 monk in addition absolutely ruined monk quality in PvE. A massive number of players made Mo/W to farm with the 55 monk and they think that they know how to heal. In general it is good to avoid selecting Mo/W if possible. Get someone who actually knows how to play a monk.

samifly · May 16, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Monks should never be doing the ressing, unless theres a lull in the battle, and never ever res in battle with rebirth, especially if your the monk.

Thom · May 16, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

This is an awesome thread.

I would agree that most missions are doable with a single monk, either heal or boon/prot. This however doesn't leave much margin of error to the rest of the party. If I'm the only monk, I'm not going to babysit an assassin (or anyone else) and I can't deal if we pull two significant groups. I'll normally request some level of defense from everyone if I am "the monk". There is also a chance that someone will die if I am a lone monk, which slows things down.

There are some high level areas where it is much easier with two monks. If there are two monks I ask everyone NOT to bring self heals. If you are in a PuG, two monks is generally safer if they are available.

Bonding... I love bonding, despite thje fact that it is incredibly boring at times. I'm not a pro-bonder, but people rarely die when I am bonding. No one need ever thank me except the other monk. In PvP, bonding is a science since you have vital blessing and life bond to choose from plus possible offensive dutys or martyr depending on the build. If you are playing a three man monk line, bonds aren't a bad choice for your third monk.

I know there are differences between pve and pvp, but it doesn't take much research (or observation) to see that protection is as important as healing. When you championship teams are consistantly protection heavy and all of your fotm HA builds (outside of IWAY) and team farming builds are protection heavy, it is a clear hint that protection isn't worthless. If someone tells me to go from prot to heal, when there is already a healer I'll find a non-noob group leader. May sound harsh, but the prot-heal combination greatly cuts down on overhealing and doubling up on healing unneccarily reduces efficiency. Even in the stand tombs triple (WoH, SB/infuse, RC Prot) your SB infuse guy normally plays seed and hp while your WoH spams to avoid overhealing. Most missions are easy enough that you don't need an optimized build to succeed, but to intentionally ask for an inferior healing set up is kind of silly.

Quick story, I did the final palace mission with a bonder build. There was a monk leading the group and he was saying how he had lost 7 times already. I bonded and used martyr; rarely did anyone have health issues. Got two swords on the first try (not great, but good for a PuG). Everyone was so happy that we suck together and finished the game. Don't know if anyone thanked me personally, but I know that I was a large part of the success which is enough for me.

CorstedPirate · May 16, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I was a healer monk all through Prophesies. Except my brief career as a bonder for the Dunes of Despair bonus. I have had people be grateful for a good run, and I have had some people forget how to play and blame me for it.

I am going boon prot for Factions. It seems that there are people that truely don't know how to play. The beginner area is so easy that it gets people to level 18 without teaching them how to play their profession. So, I need to prevent damage more since they don't know how yet. I have been using OoB for my energy management, because I don't want to be in aggro range if I can help it. Yep, every time it recharges, OoB+Signet of Devotion. Keeps my energy up so I dont have to even worry about it most of the time.

I do hate that people call for res in the middle of battle. As if the monk is supposed to just forget the rest of the party. On occasion I do res in battle, if the tide turns and things are well in hand. If they need a res so bad in the middle of a battle, someone else should do it, not the monk.

Maxiemonster · May 16, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Most stuff can be done without a Monk at all, the thing is, if a Warrior pulls 2 groups, instead of 1, it's always the Monk's fault if the whole team dies. Seems fair, right?

If your team knows what they're doing, 2 Monks is overkill, but I wouldn't ever start a PUG with 1 Monk, as I don't know what idiots I inivted this time.